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TOPIC: Eldora Slick....What do you all think??...

Eldora Slick....What do you all think??... 2 years 5 months ago #3

  • J-Rock
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Figured I would take the time and christian the forums here with a post that begs the question of what everyone and anyone in the NR2003 community who has had the chance to download and try the Eldora_Slick track that has been produced by Zoom at SRD and abroad thinks about it??

I have reserved myself to provide a link to said track only because I have some concerns about it and would like to keep them from being public until there is reason to think otherwise.

So, I suppose I am asking a favor of those in the NR2003 community to chime in and help me feel out what you think of this track he has produced. If only in an effort for me to gauge how those in the NR2003 community critique a track, what they look for, etc....

I have dedicated well over a year of my free time to the production of the track he has used as base for his rendition and, again, I am trying my best to to reserve my own thoughts of what has been done.

I appreciate any responses in advance!!......

J-Rock
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Eldora Slick....What do you all think??... 2 years 5 months ago #4

  • ongias25
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First off,thank you for making this track.The only thing I liked about the re-worked version was the track surface looked more raced on (grey) and packed,other than grip and setup changes it was close to yours as far as the "feel" was concerned to Me. I know this post is late,but I thought I would chime in on the track seeing no one else has. Just My two cents worth. Thank you JRock for all your work and time put into SBP tracks. Phil
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Eldora Slick....What do you all think??... 2 years 4 months ago #5

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ongias25 wrote:
First off,thank you for making this track.The only thing I liked about the re-worked version was the track surface looked more raced on (grey) and packed,other than grip and setup changes it was close to yours as far as the "feel" was concerned to Me. I know this post is late,but I thought I would chime in on the track seeing no one else has. Just My two cents worth. Thank you JRock for all your work and time put into SBP tracks. Phil

Thank you for the response... ;)
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Eldora Slick....What do you all think??... 2 years 4 months ago #6

  • JNorton
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Looked like the only thing that was changed graphically was the track surface. He was on the right track as far as the grip goes for the trucks, but went a little overboard. They are way too loose. His AI times are where they should be in the high 19's and 20's for the truck series, but the overall grass and dirt settings should have come up and then the AI slowed down again using the ai_grip_modifier and the ai_drag_modifier under the [ track_cts ] section.

I also keep seeing builders create dirt tracks with tire heat sections for the player. Not gonna happen. Papyrus never added heat options for grass and dirt. Your first few laps after loading the track, or after a tire change are going to usually be your best laps. After that the tire temps drop. Although it really doesn't affect the car to much a little heat would have been nice in the grass and dirt to get a slight bite out of the tires. :)
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Eldora Slick....What do you all think??... 2 years 4 months ago #7

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JNorton wrote:
Looked like the only thing that was changed graphically was the track surface. He was on the right track as far as the grip goes for the trucks, but went a little overboard. They are way too loose. His AI times are where they should be in the high 19's and 20's for the truck series, but the overall grass and dirt settings should have come up and then the AI slowed down again using the ai_grip_modifier and the ai_drag_modifier under the [ track_cts ] section.

I also keep seeing builders create dirt tracks with tire heat sections for the player. Not gonna happen. Papyrus never added heat options for grass and dirt. Your first few laps after loading the track, or after a tire change are going to usually be your best laps. After that the tire temps drop. Although it really doesn't affect the car to much a little heat would have been nice in the grass and dirt to get a slight bite out of the tires. :)

Yes, this is one thing have also observed with using grass or dirt properties...especially with grass....since it is usually the most prominent property used in a dirt track....the tire temps or heat in the tires actually goes down (decreases) as laps go on...only thing is that even with applying a higher value to tire heat in the INI it does NOT reverse or even take away from this effect....

So suppose we can agree on at least one thing going on with this sim... :lol: ....but I'm still not totally convinced in being able to make the A.I. perform much the same way the player should be able to drive a dirt track....as in slideways.....YES, I get the whole idea of getting them to perform the proper lap times, but to me that's only half the equation.... :unsure: .....The times that were accomplished for the CTS physic for the Eldora build (and prior to this rendition) were done in reflection to how the GNS physic responds, hence the similarities in INI params....the obvious difference was that the A.I. did not (and most likely will not in this sim anyways) drive slideways while making laps around the track. Maybe that isn't even what the problem or issue is here and maybe, just possibly, we need to go back to the drawing board as far as how we think dirt racing should work in this sim.... :unsure:... One thing is known for sure and that is what we were trying to accomplish was:

#1 The A.I. could/would complete laps without acting weird or wicked and
#2 For the A.I. to able to accomplish the same lap time/speed as the player driver

...and with that feel we accomplished that. What is now be being brought up by your observation, John, is obviously the fact that the lap times and speeds being achieved by the CTS physic is a bit too high...and am coming to realize this is true...BUT the way the "slick" version has been done is in our mind not the way to accomplish getting them to perform the proper lap times and speeds....it's just sloppy to say the least.... :P ...The main point was trying to convey about Zoom's rendition of our Eldora track was that even though he did what he did.... to keep us in the loop of what he was doing...he didn't allow us that privilege and consider the fact that we had put well over a year of time and testing into it for him to just leap-frog us and go his own way. I am hoping he see's the error of his ways and understands there is a right an wrong way of getting a vision you have of something out there to the community and using some one else's work to accomplish that. What we feel here at SBP is that this "slick" rendition is now out there as HIS creation and we are hung out to dry...as in our work means NOTHING!!!...Granted, this isn't about taking all the glory...it's about reputation....and we definitely got ours stepped on....only thing left now is to mop up the mess and try to pick up the pieces.... :unsure:

So, in closing, if for no other reason, that is pretty much why we went the direction that we did in order get the A.I. to complete laps without stepping on themselves or just acting "wicked" or dumb-founded...The way the A.I. perform in this "slick" rendition is in our mind just WRONG and deemed as a poor representation of our abilities....insulting even.....As I had previously mentioned at SRD (before it was removed and taken down) I had stated, and still hold my grounds to this, that the choice of textures looking like asphalt on an otherwise grass/dirt property was poor and that there is incredibly too much wheel action needing to happen just to get a lap around this "slick" rendition. Furthermore, feel that if we as SBP would have released something like this "slick" version in the first place that we would be ashamed of ourselves for such poor choice in quality.
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by J-Rock.
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Eldora Slick....What do you all think??... 2 years 4 months ago #8

  • JNorton
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It's not about getting NR2003 AI cars to slide sideways. Even thought that can kinda be done via settings and the race.lp file. You can see it a little bit on my Cedarburg track and videos. Yes a player can get sideways and hold a line with the AI in the corners on dirt.

Trucks weight 3,400 lb (1,542 kg) minimum without driver. They are heavy, loose and slow on dirt compared to other dirt cars. Driver interviews and videos from Eldora speak for themselves. The track record for a truck there is 19.704 set by Ken Schrader in 2013. In the sim they are doing 14's using the cts physics. WOO has done 12's, UMP (Dream) late models have hit the very high 14, and most everything else is in the 15's and 16's. Modified's are running in the low 17's with a track record at 16.939.

My whole point was to bring that AI back down to real speeds. It doesn't take anything away from a track, or the work put into one. It just adds an extra level of realism. ;)
Last Edit: 2 years 4 months ago by JNorton.
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